During a three-year period, the London native notched three
consecutive U.K. No. 1 albums - Replicas (with Tubeway Army), The
Pleasure Principle, Telekon – plus the back-to-back pop chart topping songs
“Are ‘Friends’ Electric?” and “Cars.” The latter tune also became a top 10 hit worldwide
(including America).
Since then, the singer has racked up a dozen more top 20 singles
at home, been cited as an influence on modern rock acts like Trent Reznor of
Nine Inch Nails, Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins and become a
frequent sampling source by countless rappers and electronic acts.
We recently checked in with Numan, 63, for a phone interview about the new album Intruder (BMG) and more...
Question: Intruder is one of your more
compelling studio albums since reinventing your sound and gravitating toward a
more aggressive electronic rock direction. When you first started working on this
release, did you have any goals in mind?
Answer: Yes and no. There’s a bit of a road map,
a place mark that I’ve been on for quite some time: This slightly heavier,
industrial feel, but not hardcore, with a Middle Eastern influence here and
there. I’ve been in that same world now for a while because I really enjoy it
and I think it’s where I’m most at home. I like that sort of music and I think
I’m pretty good at that sort of thing.
I made in album in ’97 called Exile which is much the
same thing that I’m doing now. I wrote that one because I didn’t hear anybody
else doing it really. I wanted a heavier electronic doomy [sound]. Initially, I
went in that direction more because I just wanted to hear that kind of music. I
really loved it. I feel a bit guilty saying that I’ve been doing it ever since
because that doesn’t sound very adventurous, but I have really. I stayed in
that area.
Q: Would it be fair to say that thematically, Intruder
is a continuation of what you created on 2017’s Savage: Songs from a Broken
World?
A: [Intruder] has climate change in
its reason for being. Savage looked at the human condition. My science
fiction fantasy was about 100 years from the time of the great apocalypse. What
would humanity become? How brutal and savage would it need to be to survive in
such a hostile place where resources are scarce, and people are desperate? But
it has climate change as its core, obviously. The new [album] is much more set
in the now. It’s a very different approach. If the Earth could speak, how would
the Earth talk about the way it feels at the moment? What would it say, given a
voice about what we’re doing to it? So, it’s very much in the now - a different
look at the same issue compared to what Savage was. But definitely
connected.
Q: Didn’t the previous album’s lyrics stem from
a novel you’d been working on?
A: Savage started out as a book
called “Ruin.” I just liberated ideas from that.
Q: Although you began work on Intruder
before the pandemic hit, some lyrics relate to what people have been going
through since 2020.
A: That’s just a tragic coincidence, I’m
afraid. I had probably done about nine songs before the pandemic started. Intruder
was well underway – it had a theme, subject matter and most of the content was
there. Even the idea that the Earth is probably fighting back now against us
was already there. It was part of the lyrics.
When covid came along, it was this horrible coincidence.
There was a global event that arguably could tie in directly with what the
album was already saying. So, I wrote a song called ‘The Gift.’ I think it was
song 10 and directly about covid - under the idea that it was a gift from the
planet and done in a very sarcastic way.
It talks about, ‘Do you like the gift I sent to you? It will
take your breath away.’ The idea of Earth and nature as a system - identifying
human beings as an enemy or as an infestation on the planet and therefore
having some kind of mechanism to react against that - doesn’t seem to be a
far-fetched idea.
When I first started talking about this to people, I was
talking about ‘The Gift’ and what it meant. Initially, I was saying, ‘Maybe covid
is the first of many viruses to come. It becomes ever more refined and ever more
deadly as it tries to eliminate us from the planet.’ Then I started to think,
‘It probably isn’t the first.’ It could be one of many along the way.’ We could
unknowingly have been at war with the planet for 100 years or more. We just
didn’t realize the Earth identified us as a problem a very long time ago and
it’s been trying systematically to get rid of us.
Now we come up with fixes and cures and fighting what the
Earth does. The Earth [creates] another one, then that gets us, and we fight
back and there’s another one. It’s given me an idea for the next album. I’m
really seriously thinking of the next one having more to do with this ongoing
battle between humanity and the planet … We’re effectively trying to kill
ourselves, if we don’t kill ourselves and not take the planet with us.
Q: What we’re discussing ties into the recent
virtual Leaders Summit on Climate convened by President Biden. What did you
think about the various countries’ pledges to reduce their carbon emission
output by certain target dates? Can we trust these world leaders?
A: If you believe what the experts say we
need to do, compared to what is being promised, it doesn’t really seem to be
enough. The problem is we’ve heard all these lofty encouraging promises before.
Then you have the contradiction of new drilling licenses being given and
brand-new oil fields in same month that they’re saying, ‘We’re going to phase
out fossil fuels.’ How are you going to do that if you allowed drilling
billions more gallons of the stuff? There’s an awful lot of [lip service]. It’s
very hard to genuinely believe there is that strength of commitment and things
are going to be followed through.
Of course, there are so many obstacles in the way,
especially in America. You’ve got an opposition party that by and large doesn’t
really believe in climate change and considers it all a big fuss over nothing …
It’s a very difficult thing to win.
I’m not an expert by any means, but my feelings are that all
we can do in a very small way is add to the conversation. Do our best to keep
this argument very much at the forefront. Bring enough pressure to convince
enough people to be active, to vote in a way that sends out a signal that the
people we have in power at the moment [should] do enough to slow it down.
Then the young generation, the kids of today, will become
the leaders of tomorrow and have a planet left for them to actually work with.
Q: One of the standout songs on Intruder
is “When You Fall,” with its thunderous crunch sound, melodic synths weaving in
and out and seemingly political lyrics. At one point, you sing about “only
offering thoughts and prayers.” Did you have useless politicians in mind while
writing it?
A: That’s exactly what it was! [laughs]
Isn’t that the first thing you see when there’s a mass shooting somewhere – ‘We
offer our thoughts and prayers?’ Really, that’s gonna fucking help. Since I’ve
been living in America - I’ve been here for eight years, I’m a citizen now and
I feel justified in saying this – it becomes very frustrating whenever anything
[bad] happens, the first thing that people do is offer their thoughts and
prayers. I’m just so sick of hearing it. As an atheist, it’s particularly
frustrating to be seeing that. As if that does anything, rather than any actions.
Q: “Now and Forever” is very enthralling. It
has a dual meaning, relating to the Earth speaking and as a love letter to your
wife Gemma. Most people don’t think of Gary Numan and romantic sentiments. Have
there been other song examples like that in the past?
A: Yeah, there’s another one called “Lost”
[from 2013’s Splinter] … I fairly often bring her and the children into
songs. With them, I worry that I do it in a slightly creepy way because I often
talk about the children in the sense that when I die - I’m afraid that I’m
morbidly concerned about getting old and dying, maybe it’s the age that I’m at
- I often write songs to the children where I talk about being in the wind, a
smile in their dreams. That notion of being a ghost that’s still looking after
them.
Q: Speaking of your daughters: two of them sing
background vocals on Intruder and one contributed to Savage as
well. How did that come about? Were you so pleased with the job Persia did last
time around that you said, ‘How about helping dear old dad again?’
A: It was exactly that. Many songs on the
new record just needed that whispery, sort of haunting female ethereal singing
on them. My oldest daughter Raven is also an amazing singer. She’s never really
been given a vehicle before. I wanted to bring her in as well. Persia is a
great singer. She’s got a gift … to have them both on it was just amazing for
me.
They’re not there because I’m just trying to squeeze my kids
onto the record. If they weren’t singing, I’d have to get somebody else in to
do it. What they’re doing is really important to the songs they’re on. What
they add is a genuine contribution to the record. I’m not just a doting father
making [room for them]. They’re genuinely good and write songs.
Persia wrote a song that I’ve used on the album called ‘The
Black Sun,’ which is 90 percent hers. I helped her a little with the chorus
musically. I did the vocal and the lyric for it. Everything else is hers. I
don’t want to make it seem like I wrote a song, she whispered one word and I
gave her a songwriting credit. No – she genuinely wrote the song that I took
and put on the album. She’s very clever.
Raven, the oldest one, is far more prolific than Persia … I
have a Patreon page. I put three or four bits of music on there that Raven’s
working on at the moment. I’m so proud and impressed by what she does. I want
people to hear it.
The whole Intruder idea came from a poem that my
youngest daughter wrote. A couple years ago, when she was 11, she wrote a poem
called ‘Earth’ about it speaking to the other planets in the solar system and
explaining why it was sad, how horrible people were and what they were doing to
it.
I just sort of stole that idea completely for Intruder.
In one way or another, all the kids are on it. When the album comes out and you
open the [LP] gatefold, the poem is there in full as part of the artwork. It’s
great for me to have them involved in a genuine way contributing.
Q: The music on Intruder and Savage
almost has a cinematic quality. Do you and longtime producer/co-songwriter Ade
Fenton ever think in visual terms while creating the musical soundscapes?
A: What he does is absolutely amazing. The
albums are so much better for his contributions to them. He’s brilliant.
Q: You’ve collaborated with Ade for 15 years
now. Do you find there’s an instinctual method between you both while writing
songs?
A: Yeah, it’s a great relationship and it’s
gotten better over time. It’s a seamless thing now. We work quickly together.
There’s no arguing. We understand each other. We give each other the freedom to
explore and make changes and ultimately, we make decisions without causing any
offense. But yes, cinematically, when
I’m writing the stuff, I see the world I’m trying to create and describe. I see
the moment. I know exactly the atmosphere and feeling that I want the music to
give.
Everything is structured toward that. And I agree with you.
I think Intruder, Savage and [even 2013’s] Splinter are like
soundtrack albums without a film. Just the movie is missing from them. Toward
the end of the Savage [promo] campaign, we did some shows in London with
an orchestra. That was really amazing. The cinematic nature of them was
amplified many times by having an orchestra at the back of the stage playing.
For me, it was an amazing moment. I was so proud of the way everything sounded.
There was a big stage and a big video screen in the back
with various films that had been made [for the tour]. The orchestra was
soaring. I want to do it again. We’re talking and hoping to do something again
toward the end of 2022 or early 2023.
Q: I was
intrigued by the first three songs on the new album where you utilized a unique
Turkish instrument called the yaybahar. Can you tell me about the process of
getting its inventor, Gorkem Sen, to play on it?
A: I was actually very lucky. I was having a
chat with a fan a few years ago. He was interested in the fact that I had a lot
of Middle Eastern flavors in the music. I certainly have done more recently. We
were talking about where the interest comes from, Middle Eastern melodies and
instrumentation. He said, ‘Have you heard of a man called Gorkem Sen?’ I said,
‘No.’ He said, ‘You should check him out. He invented this instrument; it’s the
only one of its kind in the world’… He gave me some YouTube links … I didn’t
think much of it. No disrespect – I’m always being pointed in one direction or
another by well-meaning people and it’s usually nonsense. But I did it anyway.
He was absolutely right; it was amazing. I checked him out.
With the instrument, he stands upright to play. You can finger or bow it. It’s
attached to long flexible strings that reverberate through drums like an
organic synthesizer. It’s unbelievable what it does. Obviously, it’s the only
one in the world. He’s the only person that can play it.
Ade got in contact with him and asked if he’d be involved.
He was very cautious. I think he was suspicious that I was going to steal his
sounds and make them available [as synthesized samples]. I understand that. His
whole life is enveloped in this instrument. He wants to protect it. I had to
write out a contract and agree to all sorts of restrictions. None of which was
a problem because I just wanted him on the album. Once he was sure I wasn’t
going to steal anything, he got involved, played on those three songs and I
think it makes such a difference.
To have an instrument like that on your album, and it’s the
only one in the world, that’s pretty cool. I’m really proud of it. The thing
that also puts a smile on my face is I’m pretty much a guy that is [considered]
electronic through and through. And yet the thing that I’m most excited about
on the album is something that’s not electronic at all. In fact, I think the
most amazing contribution on the album is [that instrument]. I get a perverse
kind of pleasure out of that.
Q: Synthesizers have played a big part of your
music dating back to your early material. Do you still keep up with the latest
technology or do you leave it to Ade to update you on everything coming out?
A: A bit of both really. If it’s sound
creation things like synthesizers or drum machines, I’m reasonably up on that.
My studio is very much state of the art. Actually, it’s boring to be honest. I
don’t have any hardware in there at all apart from one giant 42-inch screen
which is a touch screen. All the software comes up on that. And one keyboard,
which isn’t even a synthesizer. Just a keyboard that talks to the computer.
That’s it. No hardware synthesizers, no outboard gear, no effects, no chorus or
reverb units, no big racks with cables poking out.
Q: Modern, but minimalist.
A: Yeah. Yet it’s the most capable studio
I’ve ever had. What it can actually do and what it can record - the quality it
does it at is unbelievable. When it comes to compressors and limiters, the more
technical side of things, I don’t have any interest. Ade does all of that. He’s
interested in the hardware and has things made for him. He talks to
manufacturers and boffins. He’s far more into the technical side than I am.
Q: When you were working up the new album last
year, California was in the midst of a stay-at-home order. After you finished
up, were you surprised at what the outside world was like since you’d been
hunkered down in the studio?
A: I was, yeah. [laughs] You know what? I’ve
spoken to lots of people about this over the last month or so. You’re the first
person that realized what it would be like. That you would be busy, and you
wouldn’t really notice while making a record. You’re right. That’s exactly what
it was like.
Pre-pandemic, I would get up in the morning, go to the
studio, come out in the evening, go to bed. Then the pandemic comes along and
I’m doing exactly the same thing. I was aware of what was going on and I was
very concerned about it, but it didn’t really have that much of an impact, if
any, because I was really busy trying to get the album finished. I had a
deadline coming up … toward the end, I spent seven weeks writing a book which
made the album schedule a little tight. I worked it out perfectly. I had two
months to work on the last three songs.
I was having the book written by a ghost writer, but it
didn’t work out, so I ended up writing the thing myself completely. That took
up 7 ½ of the nine weeks I had left before the album deadline. When the book was
done, it was pretty stressful because that had its own deadline.
When the book was done, I had 10 days left to write two new
songs and finish the third one I’d already started. That was pretty intense. It
was stressful. Also, within that 10 days, I had to make the video for
‘Intruder.’ I lost three of those 10 days making the video. I only had seven
days to write 2 ½ songs. Even more reason why I didn’t notice the pandemic
until that was over. Then it really hit me how the world was.
Q: You mentioned on social media how making
that particular video was painful. You really had to suffer for your art.
A: A bit. [laughs] The whole thing was done
on one small platform with a camera constantly spinning around me. You’re
trying to do a performance that maintains some sort of engagement with an
audience for 4-5 minutes. You really can’t move. I found that challenging. I
was worried about that before we did it – that I’d be able to do enough to keep
people’s interest. It came out really well. That’s really due to Chris Corner
[of IAMX] who made the video, the way he put it together, the film quality and
the editing. He did an amazing job. Hanging in the harness at the end - that
was really weird and uncomfortable. At the beginning of it, I’m crouched over.
The clothes I had on, I actually couldn’t breathe when I was leaning forward,
so I had to hold my breath for a minute or more while doing a scene where I’m
rising up. Nothing stupidly unpleasant, but it was uncomfortable.
Q: At any point, did you think, ‘Why didn’t I
just do a lyric video and be done with it?’
A: [Laughs] Chris Corner is a genius. If he
says you got to hang upside down in a harness so it’s gonna look good, you just
do it and get on with it.
Q: The video for “Saints & Liars” is
visually stunning as well. What was it like trudging through the Mojave Desert near
Route 66 for that one?
A: We did three days on that. The first day
was brilliant. We got so much done. It was a really cool place to be.
Strikingly barren in the middle of nowhere. It was perfect for what we were
doing. An amazing landscape. The second day was mainly in a warehouse doing the
internal stuff. The third day was a bit of a disaster.
One of the vehicles got stuck, so we couldn’t do a lot of
the volcano shots we wanted. Then a massive storm came through. We were in the
desert; it flooded. We nearly got trapped … Clothes and makeup got ruined. The
weather killed us.
We got back to the camp, it was all flooded and we were
trapped in this area. Chris got a call that one of his dogs attacked and killed
another one of his dogs. He was upset. We eventually got out and went to Chris’
place. Me and Gemma were going to help him with the dogs … as we arrived, we
got a call that one of our dogs back home in Los Angeles had attacked one of
our other dogs and nearly killed it. What a horrendous coincidence that was! We
had to rush home because our dog was in the hospital. We didn’t know if it was going
to live … We managed to get enough [footage]. Chris went back and got some
other shots without me. He had his girlfriend dress in my outfit and walk
around the side of the volcano. You don’t know it’s not me from a distance.
Q: The new album will be available in a variety
of formats, including double gold LP, picture disc, cassette and more. Is it
important for you to give the fans a variety of buying options?
A: Some people like CD. Pretty much
everybody likes vinyl. Cassettes have definitely got their fans who love that
format. I don’t, for whatever reason. I think it makes the whole package
exciting. People can go and choose what they want. It appeals to all your
different fans and the desires they’ve got on how they want to listen to music
and engage with it.
I love the fact that the fans are out there buying vinyl
because I believe that’s still the best way to listen to music and to
experience music. It’s the best way you can package music. I love vinyl. It’s
probably because I’m old, but I still do. I think vinyl’s an amazing format.
There’s almost a ritual to vinyl. Taking it out of the sleeve, putting it on
the turntable, bringing the arm across, sitting back, and listening to an
entire side, not skipping songs. Listening to it the way it was intended. I
love it; I really do.
If the fans didn’t want them, you would see that very
clearly. That it was not a popular decision. And certain formats that people
were not interested in. But that isn’t what happens. I see that when we do the
meet and greets when we’re touring. The different things that people bring to
sign and their reasons for bringing them. Why they like this particular format
and not that one. I’m kind of familiar with the way they think and see things.
That’s why I’m sticking to the multiple formats. It really works.
Q: Looking back to the early days of your
career, success came quickly while you were still in your early 20s. There was
a backlash from U.K. music critics and even some fellow musicians. How did you
react?
A: It was surprising. I didn’t expect that
degree of hostility to be honest. I think there was an awful lot of
misinformation being written about electronic music. I remember clearly reading
‘This means the death of the guitar’ and all sorts of stupid shit like that. I
think a lot of people actually believed that.
The guitar was so firmly established as the instrument of
modern music that I think a lot of people were nervous about something new
coming along that might displace it. Of course, I never intended that. ‘Are ‘Friends’
Electric’ has got guitar all over it. All I ever did was add electronic music
to what there had been before. I just added another layer. So, I was never a
threat to conventional lineups. Much as I love electronic music and was a
champion of it, it wasn’t my intention to replace anything else.
I did a little bit, strangely enough, with ‘The Pleasure
Principle,’ my third album, when that came out. I didn’t have guitar on that
one. Just bass guitar. That was really my childish knee-jerk reaction to some
of that criticism. I’ve made something like 21 albums now. It’s only ever been
that one album. It still had drums and violin on it. All sorts of conventional
instruments. Just not guitar to prove a point. Which was silly really, because
it fed into what those people were saying … there’s a degree of human nature
that comes into it. If something is doing really well, but you don’t get it,
you don’t like it, you don’t know what all the fuss is about, then you probably
resent that music a little more than you otherwise would.
Normally you’d not listen to it and ignore it, you wouldn’t
care. It’s not your cup of tea. But when it’s doing really well and everyone’s
talking about it, it sort of annoys you a little bit. You feel a little
disgruntled.
To a journalist, you might say that. You can put it into
words. You can vent your frustrations. I think that’s where a lot of that
hostility comes from. When you think about it, it was sort of genuine. They
genuinely didn’t like it and didn’t get why people were buying my stuff. They
genuinely didn’t think that I was offering anything worthwhile. So, they said
so. I don’t look back on that with any sort of dissonance; I really don’t. I
understand that people genuinely didn’t like it and that’s fair enough.
Q: With the success of “Cars,” I always found
it interesting that you had a major pop hit in America with a song that has something
like a 2:30 instrumental outro with no vocals. Because of that, were you ever urged
to do a radio edit by Atco Records?
A: Not really. You’re right, all the singing
happens in the first minute. It was not as awkward as when you’d have to do it
on television to film it. I’m at the front singing it. That’s over fairly
quickly. Then what do you do? Stand there with absolutely nothing to do. I can’t
dance. Doing ‘Cars’ on television was always a nightmare for me. I just didn’t
know what to do. Two and a half minutes is like a lifetime when you’re doing
television. You try to look interesting, and you can’t. You don’t move. You
don’t dance. What do you know?
The funny thing about ‘Cars’ to me was how I felt really
awkward. I’d go to radio stations in America. They would play a Rush song, then
they’d play ‘Cars,’ then they’d play Foreigner or Boston. ‘Cars’ sounded so out
of place. If I’d have been more confident, I would’ve been more impressed by
that. I’d been really proud of that: ‘Listen to me, I sound like the future!’
But I’m not confident. I’ve never been that way. I thought, ‘Oh my God, my
stuff sounds really weird and different. No one’s going to want this here.’ I
felt really uncomfortable with the whole thing. And I regret that. I wish I’d
have been more confident and reveled in the fact that what I did sounded
massively different to everything else that was out there at the time. I don’t
have that level of confidence unfortunately.
Photo courtesy Mixed Media Works Public Relations
My interview originally appeared at https://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/
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